iPad Heating
I've recently noticed that my iPad gets very hot when using Drambo, even though the processor load isn't high. Is this normal? Especially considering I have an m4 iPad.
I've recently noticed that my iPad gets very hot when using Drambo, even though the processor load isn't high. Is this normal? Especially considering I have an m4 iPad.
Comments
It really depends on what you're doing.
If nothing else is running in the background and you have no AUv3 plugins loaded, I'd be really interested in what kind of patch you have.
If it gets hot while cpu is low then it certainly can’t be drambo. I can get my ipad9 cozy warm if either I’ m running a lot of au apps, or most likely safari in the background which seems to be getting worse with every update
I have a 10-track project, and each one uses a Fabfilter Pro-Q3 + Saturn 2 on the master.
I need to try it with the background processors closed. Honestly, I didn't expect this from the M4. I think my previous Air on the M1 ran cooler...
Maybe your previous m1 couldn’t run those full speed. Anyway you can’t blame it on drambo if you’re running all those fabfilters. I mean they sound great but at a cost
Okay. Thanks. Glad to hear it's not Drambo. I'll have to experiment with background processes and AUv3.
I tried turning off all background processes, and the iPad became slightly warmer. Thanks!
Most of the FF stuff is relatively easy in the CPU but they do tax the GPU a bit which could explain the heat buildup.
On my iPad 9 I have noticed that a very bright backlight setting can create additional heat too. Just a thought…
I ran a series of tests, and when the Pro-Q3 is placed on 10 tracks, the iPad gets hotter.
Frankly, I was surprised and upset that my Pro M4 couldn't handle this task smoothly.
imo It's because it's all packed onto one thread. If we had a multi-threaded audio engine your ipad would be less hot.
Whenever I load the same AuV3s / project types into Cubasis, my ipad doesn't even break a sweat. Any single threaded host, hot as hell. And it's not hand-clapping for Cubasis, it's not my favorite. It is just efficient.
You've said this before @Goldiblockz - but I've never quite made sense of it. Can you explain?
I don't understand how spreading the same computing load over more than one processor changes the heat equation. Take the analogy of a light bulb. Two 30 watt bulbs add the same light to a room as a single 60 watt bulb. Each of the 30 watt bulbs will probably emit half the heat of the 60 watt bulb, but the total heat will be the same. It seems to me that this should be true of processors. The same work is being done, just spread out. I'm having a hard time understanding how the overall heat being produced can be less.
However, you've observed it with Cubasis. My question is, have you done a test with Cubasis itself using it with multi-threading turned off and turned on? What I'm trying to get at is whether this cooling efficiency is really based on multi-threading or if Cubasis is somehow just better at optimizing for heat in general.
You don't have to answer of course. And I'm definitely not trying to be argumentative. This is just me trying to make sense of how multi-threading can of itself improve heat management. The connection between heat management and multi-threading doesn't make sense to me, so I'm trying to understand what I may be missing.
Or maybe someone else has some technical insight to help sort me out?
I think the comparison with light bulbs isn't entirely accurate. You're putting the load on a single processor, and to handle all that, it gets hotter. When the load is distributed across multiple processors, each processor experiences less strain, and the overall heat output is lower.
I hear you, but it doesn't make sense to me. Lets assume all processors are identical. Let's say each produces x units of heat to carry out 1 task. You split 100 tasks between two processors. Each generates 50x heat. If only one processor is involved it produces 2 * 50x heat. Same result. The iPad has to disburse that the same amount of heat either way.
Maybe that assumption is wrong. Maybe it's not linear. Maybe if a processor is working at 75% capacity it generates 10x more heat than if it's working at 25%, not 3x more. I have no idea.
Anyway, it's just a useless thought experiment. Its not important. It's just something that I can't help but question the assumptions behind.
Thinking of it another way. Where does the heat come from? It comes from electrical consumption. The more computation occurs, the more electricity is consumed, thus the more heat. The heat is generated by the processor(s consuming electricity to carry out computations.
Engaging more than one processor doesn't materially** change the number of computations that have to be carried out. Therefore it doesn't change the amount of electricity consumed and thus the heat generated.
But again, maybe it's not linear. Maybe processors run more efficiently and generate less heat per computational unit if they're stressed less, and running more processors in their best efficiency range reduces overall power consumption. Who knows?
Trying another tortured analogy. I have two space heaters in a room. The amount of heat that must be generated is the same whether there are two heaters or one. All things being equal, heating the room with two heaters will convert the same amount of electricity to heat as one. The only way two heaters could heat the room with less consumption than one is if they're each measurably more efficient running at half the load. Just a thought.
(** it actually increases them by an insignificant amount due to the overhead needed to coordinate threads.)
We can discuss this topic at length, or we can conduct an experiment.
I loaded 8 tracks into Cubasis 3, each with a Riffer sequencer, Moog Mariana, and a Pro-Q3 fabfilter. DSP utilization was around 40%.
I pressed play and left it for 10 minutes. The iPad got warm, but not much.
Then I loaded the same thing into Drambo. The processor utilization reached its maximum, but Drambo handled it well and remained warm after 10 minutes.
I left the tablet and went about my business. After half an hour, I found the iPad quite warm. Drumbo was in the background, not playing.
I decided to test the same thing with Cubasis. I opened the project and moved it to the background. After half an hour, I checked the iPad; it was completely cool.
Was "Background Audio" turned off in Drambo? If not, it would keep running and generating heat even if switched to background. Cubasis has a Background Audio switch as well. Is it turned on or off there?
The real test to get at whether or not Multi-Threading makes a difference in thermal performance is to compare the same project with and without Multi-core Processing turned on Cubasis.
Comparing two applications on identical projects is perfectly legitimate. Background audio mode is enabled in both.
But since you want to see the multicore functionality, I reopened the project in Cubasis and left it for a few minutes. CPU usage didn't exceed 40%.
Immediately after disabling multicore mode, the CPU usage increased to almost 90%, sometimes reaching 100% (as it did in Drambo).
And after a few minutes, it simply started throttling.
I really love Drambo. But the constant overheating I've been experiencing lately is bothering me.
thanks. I appreciate you taking all the time to set up tests.
Was there heat difference between using Cubasis with multi-core on and off? That’s what I’m really trying to understand.
I do have a purpose behind all the questions beyond just idle curiosity. Wouldn’t it be a shame to assume multi-thread audio support would be the solution to overheating, only to find out there’s a different cause? I can think of more than one over the years that has had bad overheating issues for completely other reasons. Gadget is one such example. Its overheating used to be downright scary. Korg eventually resolved it.
Are you saying the problem is with the device or the apps and not with Drambo?
I'm not saying anything of the kind. I have no idea what the problem is. I'm saying that multi-threaded audio may not be the answer to this problem. In fact I think it may not reduce overheating at all.
I'm just going to leave this discussion at this point. I'm not the one that can do anything about it anyway.
I had a somewhat humorous analogy I thought I’d share;
how about we put one guy, in room A, with a six pack of beer. (He drinks all six beers)
then we put six guys in room B with a six pack of beer. (They all get one beer each)
in which room will you find the drunkest guy?
Wrong question (if you're talking about heat generation, not performance).
The right question is: In which room will you find the most piss on the floor?
After some searching, I partially solved the overheating issue. In my case, constantly syncing apps with iCloud helped.
The iPad didn't cool down completely, but the performance was improved and the processor load was also reduced.
That is interesting. Can you explain in a little more detail what you mean by "constantly syncing apps with iCloud"?
I'm not exactly sure how this happens. But as far as I understand, apps sync with iCloud. It's configured in the iCloud tab. And from what I've gathered from my research, this can use up CPU resources and cause overheating.
My experience is the same as @ptrvch , Cubasis is consistently cooler with multithreaded enabled, with 2–3x dsp overhead given to me. I see no reason why Drambo would not benefit similarly.
same plugins every time, airplane mode always enabled so no icloud or weird syncing issues here. Just straight up performance and less heat.
As far as latency is concerned, multithreaded enabled only adds/removes 5ms latency to the system overall at Cubasis 5.3 buffer setting; which I assume is their equivalent of 128; for at least double the performance efficiency.
I want to note; I do not like using Cubasis and wish I had another option nearly as efficient. There's just simply not another option for me until this is implemented more broadly.
Thanks for that clarification @Goldiblockz - I was really trying to drill into whether Cubasis ran cooler or not with multithreading by actual experience, but couldn't seem to communicate well enough what I was looking for.
I don't have to have a rationale for why that would be so if real-world experience proves it.
Hi. I have huge problems with overheating after switching from an A16 processor to an iPad Pro M4. The main reason for switching to a newer system was my setup. I control 8 external synthesizers and 4 controllers via a 16-input audio interface via Drambo. The previous iPad was connected via a camera adapter, which allows the lightning connector to be used as a USB A + lightning power supply for the iPad. I had a 12-input USB hub connected to USB A, which had its own power supply, so external devices did not burden the iPad's power supply. Everything was functional and the iPad never got hot, I just reached the limit of what Lightning could handle and when I wanted to connect another LP mini controller, which probably has higher power consumption due to the LED, problems started to appear - erroneous MIDI messages from Drambo caused random freezing of one of the external devices. By upgrading from Lightning to Thunderbolt 4 and the M4 processor, I assumed that these problems would disappear. That's what happened and everything works fine. Except for a small problem. After a few minutes, the iPad gets so hot that you can't even touch the screen. Putting a load on the M4 processor is quite a problem and my setup, since I don't use Au3 tools, only effects, doesn't put a load on it at all. I read on Apple that overheating problems are caused by applications that were not optimized for the M4 processor. I'm quite unhappy with this situation, because I've put everything on the Drambo setup and I'm literally addicted to it (in the sense of vendor lock-in). I've tried everything and I've clearly identified that it's caused by Drambo.
@adrx AFAIK there is no such a thing as an app optimized for M4 processor, can you post a link?
Drambo is built for the same Apple M (ARM family) with the same core architecture (there is no compilation setting for this). M4 has more cores , faster memory and CPU clocking, but the core architecture is the same. I wonder if it has something to do with external devices.
Multicore usage - for now only UI + audio remain unchanged.
btw. multicore support for audio is coming, first as an experimental feature. It's bit tricky in modular architecture - you can't use inter-track modulations.
I’m not expert or Apple developer but true is that problems with extreme overheating started with M4. True is also that this iPad is thin and powerful so heating should be more present but this is extreme. I can cook on it. After 5 minutes iPad switch to safe mode due to overheating with only drambo opened even not playing a Music.
There are more sources About optimization vs overheating. Especialy Apple forums. For example