Envelopes, Filters And Dialling In A Sound

For ’fun’ I thought I’d recreate the sound Jakob Haq refers to in his latest video https://youtu.be/39gy0Vrs0Rk (You can see him dial it into Model D from 5:57). Pics below highlighting all settings. 

Having dialled it into Model D, I wanted to replicate it in Drambo.

So this is as far as I’ve got (video of sound - 4 bars of Model D first, then 4 bars of Drambo and pic for settings). NB. For now I’ve minimised the drift on the tuning and Noise level is set to 0. I’ve tried to stay close the the model D settings but tweaked them by ear. 

I connected the AMP Env and ADSR Env to the Cutoff and synced the Oscillator gate. 

I think it’s close, but it’s not the same. 

Is it just different oscillators, filters and envelopes you’re hearing? Anything you’d suggest?

Comments

  • Try the different filter models for starters...

    If I'm not misstaken Model D has a 24db/octave ladder filter.

    The example screenshot uses a 12db/octave low-pass filter which makes a bit of a different.

  • Couldn’t he get the effect of a 24db/oct filter by having two cutoff filters in series at the same frequency?

    Another thing is this Drambo patch has more top end than the Model D.

  • Thanks 👍 You’re right the Moog is a classic ladder filter, 24db/oct (4 - pole) but, as recommended in JH’s video I was going for a 12db/oct (2 - pole). I don’t know if the LP12 SK1 in Drambo is 2 - pole but it sounded closest to me 🤔

  • edited August 25

    There's a lot of material in Drambo to experiment with.

    Chaining 2 12dB filters, even different ones, using different resonance values on them, adding a small offset to cutoff frequency, adding slight shaping etc etc.

    I also do this by ear all the time until I get where I want. Can take minutes or days 😂

    I would start with filter cutoff set to the max and make sure the Minimoog and your Drambo patch sound the same, only then continue with the filter. Add filter envelope the last!

  • @rs2000

    "I also do this by ear all the time until I get where I want. Can take minutes or days 😂"


    Yeah, agreed.

    I sat down during lockdown and listened to an oscillator for two weeks through a multitude of effects. 😂

  • How would you add a small offset to cutoff frequency?

  • @gravitas 😅

    @Burner Just dial in a slightly different frequency so the resonance peak gets a tiny bit wider. I'm not saying you need to do this (properly selected transistors will make a precise ladder) but it's an option, just in case. Cutoff offsets are definitely necessary when replicating Rush's Oberheim intro sound in 'Tom Sawyer".

  • @Burner Send me your Drambo project (I have Model D too) and I'll have a go at it if you want.

  • @rs2000 Just added a second analogue filter and sent you the file 👍

  • If you're trying to match Model D, you'll need to use the 24 dB/oct filter. If you're trying to match Jakob, it won't match Model D.

  • edited August 25

    Looking at your last Drambo diagram, I have the following suggestions:

    The Amp Env (i.e. VCA) normally comes after the filter in a synth, and it certainly does in Model D. By putting the Amp Env before the filter, you're filtering the transient generated by the envelope.

    I'm not sure why you're using the audio output from the Amp Env to modulate the filter cutoff. This certainly doesn't happen in Model D.

    I need to look this up, but I think you need to turn on Filter Modulation in Model D to enable the filter envelope, so that may be a difference between Model D and your Drambo model. Edit: Checked the manual, and you do need to enable Filter Modulation in Model D.

    Finally, you have no keyboard tracking in either Model D or Drambo. You may want to add some.

  • 👍 In the first instance I’m curious how close it’s possible to get to the Moog.

    Do you know what pole(s) the analogue filters are, the Help doesn’t say much?

    The normal filter Help says 6 to 24 poles. Do you know why there aren’t 2 - pole filters available?

  • Looks like a documentation error; it means "from 6 to 24 dB/octave". If you insert it, you'll see there are 6-, 12-, and 24-dB/octave options. Don't be confused by the "poles" terminology, that's just electrical engineer talk. Each "pole" adds 6 dB/octave to the fall-off above the cutoff.

  • It’s easy to get confused 🤣

    So 6db is 1 - pole, 12 is 2 - pole and 24 is your 4 - pole? Just for my future reference?

    And when you said Keyboard Tracking, did you mean connect Filter Cutoff to MIDI TO CV Pitch and dial in? And, if so, how would I do that for the Moog, it’s an AU Instrument? 🤔

  • Yes to the poles, and to keyboard tracking in Drambo. You'll need to adjust the cutoff when adding keyboard tracking.

    In Model D, the two "Keyboard Control" switches enable keyboard tracking. The first adds 1/3, the second adds 2/3, so both together give 100% tracking. I guess that saved a knob in the original hardware.

  • Interestingly, regarding ‘Edit: Checked the manual, and you do need to enable Filter Modulation in Model D’. 

    In JH’s creation in Model D (this is his reference sound after all), he didn’t enable the ‘Filter Modulation’ switch or either of the ‘Keyboard Control’ switches.

    Engaging the ‘Filter Modulation’ switch now doesn’t effect the sound at all, in this instance, (although I’m not using headphones right now). Engaging either or both ‘Keyboard Control’ switches definitely does 👍

    For now though, the sound we are try to nail is without ‘Filter Modulation’ or ‘Keyboard Control’ engaged in Model D - just so not to put @rs2000 off 😊

  • edited August 26

    Easier than I thought. And a nice experience confirming how good Drambo's Analog Filter really is.

    I've added voice detuning. If you want to replicate Model D's behavior more accurately, you'll have to replace the voice tuning knobs by little random generators that detune each voice differently at every note start.

    (If you listen closely, you'll notice that Model D sounds different in each pattern cycle.)

    If you want to go even further and nail it 99.99% then you'll need to add custom envelope generators (Graphic Env) or modify the ENV characteristics by routing the ENV signal into a Graphic Shaper for both Amp and Cutoff modulation.

  • @rs2000 Great job, I’ve took from that a more open filter with less envelope & slight adjustments to the envelope decay and sustain. 

    The voice detuning however is something else, quite brilliant! I would never have come up with that or have known how to implement it - I do now. Another Masterclass and great use case for the Many To Poly module. 

    I’ve moved the AMP ENV to the end as per @uncleDave‘s point and put it in and instrument rack for future use. Thank you 👍

  • You're welcome @Burner.

    Yes, sometimes slight adjustments are enough to get much closer. When more than 2..3 parameters are involved, it usually requires some time and patience.

    Enjoy 😊

  • Time, patience, finely tuned ears 👂, a big brain 🧠 and ninja level skills 🥷. To me, you guys are all motivating and exceptional 🙏

  • Spot The Difference! For anyone who missed @rs2000’s skills!


  • @Burner a perfect example of why dRambo is so good for synthesis,

    add a midi controller or two and it’s a brilliant tool for sound design and performances.

    Even without a midi controller it’s brilliant.

  • I know not strictly BeepStreet but I am running it inside Drambo 😉, could someone confirm, unlike Sunrizer and Zeeon with their independent Filter Env and Amp Env (😊). TAL-U-NO-LX, has one ADSR. Could be a dumb question but, is that ADSR shape predominately for the VCA with the VCF only affected by the ADSR shape chosen for the VCA, ie. no independent ADSR envelope setting possible for the VCF?

  • edited August 29

    I believe it follows the Juno 60 design. So there's only one envelope. You can apply it to the VCA, or just use the gate. You can apply it to the filter cutoff, with adjustable amount, and optional inversion. Or you can apply it to both. When you choose an app like Tal, you're choosing a model of legacy hardware, so it likely sticks to the original design.

    Edit: Looks like you can also apply the envelope to pulse width, if using the pulse osc. I'm more familiar with the Juno 106, which does not include that feature.

    By the way, when I buy one of these legacy synth apps, I go direct to the original manufacturer and get the manual. Reading that, you can understand how the device was intended to be used.

  • I have downloaded the manual but haven’t got to read it yet 😉

    My question was really to establish if the single ADSR (regardless of what it’s fed to) is just that. That there’s not some button combination (for example) that allows you to set the ADSR for the Filter (save/remember it) and then adjust the ADSR settings for the Amp and save/remember those - independently.

    It’s just one single ADSR and whatever it’s set to is ‘live’ and affects Filter and Amp Env identically, subject to the strength the destination(s) are set to.

    I think I’m just used to an independent Env for Filter and Amp and this synth didn’t have both and that’s OK because it sounds great 😊

  • I believe most patches use the envelope for either the VCA or the filter, not both. You can switch the VCA to Gate when using the envelope for the filter.

  • Interesting…thanks, as ever, for sharing your knowledge 👍


  • you mean the factory patches ?

    that's 80s trash ;)

    they don't show off what this thing is capable of doing.

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